In the post-COVID-19 scenario, Swadeshi again is the buzzword. The pandemic has thrown up many a challenge before the humanity. In the emerging economic and technological scenario, each country is trying to find its own solution. In India, there is a movement that is trying to provide an Indian alternative to both capitalist globalism and socialist globalism—and that is the Swadeshi Movement. Organiser Editor Prafulla Ketkar spoke to Shri R Sundaram, a noted Chartered Accountant and the National Convenor of Swadeshi Jagaran Manch on wide-ranging policy issues including the relevance of Swadeshi thought and India’s position in the emerging world order.
How do you see the relevance of the Swadeshi movement and Swadeshi thought in the post-COVID scenario?
We have been saying that every country has a unique model of development. That is what our founder, Dattopant Thengadi ji, had said in The Third Way. Each country has its unique model of development which is its third way. We have been saying about the top-down approach. The rising-tides-lifts-the-boat approach is not validated. In the pandemic period, we have seen that the bottom-up approach is still valid. The third biggest achievement about India is that we have placed the contribution of ordinary Indian in the economic development, which was not done in the last several decades. For example, the share of small scale industries, their share in export and employment is more than 50 per cent, in terms of employment is even larger in the form of unskilled labourers throughout the country. When we place this data in public domain, the confidence of nation rises.
In the post-COVID context, there is going to be a paradigm shift in the thinking of the West. They have abandoned what they have been preaching to the world. Domestic production and domestic distribution are going to be the mantra for the next two-three decades. This violent globalisation which has been practised and orchestrated by the so-called developed countries will pave way for more orderly globalisation, which our founder, Dattopant Thengadi ji, had also visualised. Natural farming will replace chemical-based farming. The world has become allergic to fertilisers and chemicals, especially after the pandemic. Indian traditional agriculture has a lot to contribute to the world. Environment will start playing an important part as people have seen Clean Ganga and experienced pure air in Delhi. They have realised the cost of unchecked growth. Present day world institutions like IMF and World Bank have outlived their utility, WTO is in coma. This we have been saying since 2001 onwards that durability of the WTO is over, which has been conclusively proved. Focus on every country’s development, more orderly globalisation, respect for nature, all these things will happen in the changed context of COVID.
Small and medium scale industries bore brunt of the pandemic most. Increasingly, there is formalisation of the informal sector. The banking sector, which was considered as our strength during the 2009-09 crisis, is facing mergers.
Smallest people are more vulnerable to these kinds of global events. It has not happened in one or two days, it’s built over a period of time. For example, our own study has shown that the Indian informal sector is facing unethical competition from the Chinese for last five-six years. They were already struggling and now this is an onslaught. Many of them have been closed but, as I said, they are the largest employment generators—every small scale industry is a graduation school for a big industry. So they need a helping hand at this moment. As far as privatisation and mergers are concerned, we need a ‘community bank’ system with each focused on one segment of the trade or one segment of the geography of the country. They will understand the sector better, they will learn easily and also recover easily. According to us, privatisation and consolidation are not the solution because every year at the international level we see private banks failing. Even in India, Yes Bank has failed. So privatisation and consolidation are not the solution. The pandemic has given us an opportunity to take a comprehensive view of what is the need of a small man, how the banking system should function and what is the real solution. We have been engaged in serious discussions and will come out with a report soon.
Could you please elaborate on ‘community banking’?
We envisage a more local mechanism which will understand the need of a particular business organisation. For example, there are millions of small scale industries in Coimbatore. A bank can understand the need of those businesses only if they understand the sector. We need more localised and specialised financial institutions which can cater to the credit needs of different kinds of institutions. Large banks have their role to play, let them play their role but the need is more than this loan.
While we see the possibility of alternative models of development, we see technological integration globally. Data is the new fossil fuel. Artificial intelligence is going to guide the life of an entire humanity. In this line of techno-globalism where do you see the Swadeshi movement in India in the future?
We have been saying for the last ten years about the concept of techno-nationalism and development of indigenous technology. Let it be 5G or social media platforms like Facebook or Twitter. We have this feeling that India has enough human resources to develop these types of technologies, only a lead has to be given to them. Even in America, Indians like Sundar Pichai are leading the technological revolution. Given an opportunity, they can definitely lead. This is the challenge we are facing, combining the Swadeshi thought with the technological explosion taking place in the world. I am not against technology, my stand will be to use technology for the maximum benefit of the people.
Besides technology and Artificial Intelligence what are the challenges you foresee as intellectually Swadeshi thought is not still fashionable.
We need to present a workable models before the nation. What do I mean by Swadeshi? What is Swadeshi way of life? What is the Swadeshi view of business, the Swadeshi way of globalisation? I want to show that we are not against globalisation. For instance, if you go to Anand, Gujarat, everybody is employed from 6 am to 12 pm, even womenfolk are engaged in some kind of economic activity in their residences, and we are told that credit filtration is hardly 20 per cent, there are no takers of credit. So, this is Swadeshi model. These kinds of models are prevalent not only in Gujarat but in other parts of the country, too. This is what we want to research, document and place it before the country. We have a functional economy with a little bit of technological support this can become beneficial. More research, more documentation and more workable models need to be presented before the nation and I need to reach out to the intelligentsia and convey that what I am saying is not against anything.
What is the Swadeshi Jagaran Manch doing for that? We already have Swadeshi models like the brass utensils of Moradabad. But unfortunately the intelligentsia doesn’t accepts that as a workable model, who are very much ready to cope up with the challenges of globalisation, they are export-oriented but running with Swadeshi ethos. Is there any initiative from Swadeshi Jagaran Manch for that?
We have identified 400-500 clusters across the country. We are also planning to set up our own research centre and we are planning to align with management institutes of different universities to make this success story as part of curriculum. Our model is manifold, to document the existing models, to make this part of the academic curriculum and to reach out to the rural areas and to see how to harness the talent, providing them employment and business. Another follow up of COVID is now people have started taking rural areas very seriously. One interesting case came in Nasik, where an educated girl wanted to marry an educated farmer there rather than an educated software engineer who works in Mumbai. A software engineer leaves for work in 7 am and comes back by 2 am next day, making life miserable for both. So technology is now helping people to move from urban areas to rural areas. I see a shift, this is the right time to remove this urban congestion. We would like to take such things forward.
But till now urbanisation has been viewed as one of the most important indicators of development.
Providing urban facilities in rural areas and urbanisation are two different concepts. We need to provide facilities to the people, it doesn’t matter whether you live in Mumbai or in some village. Definition of urbanisation will undergo a change.
While we are talking about techno-nationalism or nationalist models of development, what we are seeing is a China model. It is in a way state-controlled capitalism, but purely rooted in nationalist thinking. That is possible because it is a closed economy. But consistently it acts as a threat to our democracy, either by dumping or by interfering in our developmental projects, technological advancements and data controlling. Similar is the approach of the western world. In this situation how do you see Swadeshi’s role?
Another fallout of the pandemic is that people have understood the Chinese way of doing business. It is characterised by unethical means. There are two historical characters in India, one is Rama and another is Krishna. For Ram, means was as important as end—he would never deviate from the path of Dharma. Krishna can manipulate Adharma to achieve the Dharmic goal. So in international dealings, we should be like Krishna. We are getting inputs from across the world that everybody wants to move away from China. This leaves enough business space for India. International economy is not working on the basis of comparative cost theory. If you are going to talk about values and theories in this atmosphere, we will be losers.
In spheres of activity including global trade, we have adopted the Western model. In this scenario, do you think Swadeshi concept is practical?
The 130-crore market is our strength. Everyone is knocking at our doors. So my message to our local people is that when foreigners can see tremendous business opportunities and are coming to India, there is enough opportunities for you to grow. India can grow as much products as you want, except may be petroleum. To put in other words, there is Bhajan, there is Bhagavad Gita, and there are Upanishads. Bhajan is like mass production, which we are doing very well. Next stage is research-based activity, like we talked about Artificial Intelligence. You are the largest user of mobile phones, but you are not the inventor of the mobile phones. You are the user of aircraft but not the inventor of the aircraft.
So do you see ‘Make in India’ a step forward in that direction or you want to go in for ‘Made in India’?
I would prefer ‘Made in India’. First there was ‘Made in India’, then ‘Make in India’, then ‘Made for India’ and now, ‘Made by India’. I want to collaborate with different countries who share our ideas. In our last 30 years of existence as a trade organisation we realise the importance of aligning with similar thinking nations.
So what are the sectors and opportunities you see in the coming days for Indian youth and market in the Swadeshi model?
I will rate technology as the first area. We are in touch with the Director of IIT Chennai who thinks India can be a leader in Information Technology and global leader in computer-based education. India can also catch up and supersede China in automobile business. So technology plus our tradition will ensure that we are not left out in any area.
Do you think this will affect the AatmaNirbhar Bharat Abhiyaan campaign?
This AatmaNirbhar Bharat Abhiyaan model has in fact helped me in taking forward my Swadeshi task. I see articulation of AatmaNirbhar concept as re-articulation of the Swadeshi concept like vocal for local. These are basically Swadeshi ideas.
The critics of Swadeshi thought say that the idea of Swadeshi is not workable as it is based on Indian ethos. In the present scenario we are following the Western model.
I am not subscribing to the view that we are following the Western model. We are for indigenous development model, not just for India but different countries. We are doing business in our own way. In every type of business we are not copying the outside world. Wherever it is necessary we collaborate and wherever it is not necessary we find our own way out. Why every business agreement results in business deficit for India? India has surplus only with Bangladesh and United States. For every other international agreement, we are facing deficit. Why this is happening? If it is happening due to the incompetence of the business people then they have to rectify it. If it is happening due to government policies then change the policy. Ultimately I want my share, I don’t want anybody’s share because I want my share to be protected. Providing employment to 90 crore, employment of business and livelihood opportunities to 90 crore-plus people. If it clashes with that, my first priority will be to do away with that.
We have been saying since 2001 onwards that durability of the WTO is over, which has been conclusively proved. Focus on every country’s development, more orderly globalisation, respect for nature, all these things will happen in the changed context of COVID
There are various stakeholders if we want to take forward this concept. As the national convenor of the Swadeshi Jagaran Manch, what is your message? In the post-COVID scenario, how the government should take the opportunity to realise the idea of AatmaNirbhar Bharat?
The government has floated a very interesting idea. Now my responsibility is to work with the government and see in what form it can be really implemented in the country. This is my first priority. I congratulated the government. Now my responsibility is to define what AatmaNirbhar Bharat is in the interest of this country. In this process various thoughts will evolve. I want to work with the government and set a direction to realise the depth as it is articulating my ideas at the moment.
And what about the common public?
As far as the Swadeshi concept is concerned, I think we have succeeded in taking this concept across the country.
So any initiative to accomplish this task?
Yes, we are coming up with research documents and research publications. Our karyakartas will travel to different states to introduce this model. Different states have different models of development. So if I want to develop a manufacturing unit in Kerala or Tamil Nadu, I will have to depend on labourers from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. So my advice to the governments of Kerala and Tamil Nadu is to invest more in technology. Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh are tourism-oriented states, Jharkhand and Odisha are mining states and Maharashtra and Gujarat are manufacturing states. I prefer Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Rajasthan to develop manufacturing industries in a big way and the rest of the states to focus on the strengths they have. We can then finally arrive on mutually complementing model of development. We see every state economy needs a slightly different approach plus a national approach.
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